The point was to explain to Tenbeat why J&D got a noticeably different skin than the rest: because it's his baby and he took extra care for it (it also requires more work depending on other factors). And then I included FF Wiki to show we did it elsewhere too. Don't see how affiliation factors into this anyway?

The NWO Discord which you joined and then apparently left lol.

The affiliation is only mutual. The inFAMOUS Wiki is currently accepting the help of the NWO (via RB1196), and the Final Fantasy Wiki is also one of the NWO's pet projects. Obviously the reason that Light Daxter pointed the Final Fantasy Wiki out is to give another example of a wiki that uses a more customized main page design.

Well Jak definitely looks good. Nice job.

Couple things.

Let's have the discussion here, please. I believe that such an important issue, especially one as grand as a main page renovation, should be discussed in the public forum.

Sorry, I think I misphrased my question. I found it odd that out of all the wikis you have revamped, only one (Uncharted) is affiliated with us, so I was wondering what sort of terms would the inFamous Wiki be inherently involved in if we were to proceed with the main page revamp? If you all were from affiliated wikis, I'd understand your interest, but I am very confused by what sort of stake interests you here considering that you're not.

How? I understand that RB has contributed quite a bit here, and I am very grateful for that, but 1) he's on the NWO - that doesn't automatically make him the proxy to accept this, and 2) if he was already accepting of it (seems like he is), why even bother asking me about it? It seems like you all care little for my input if it's not a "yes".

In any case, as I mentioned before, I would like to see a more finalized mockup. Let me know when there is one.

Communicating somewhere that's not a chat server is incredibly cumbersome and not really conducive to progress. That said, we have spoken about creating a separate inFAMOUS Discord server if that would interest you? I understand wanting major decisions to be as transparent as possible, but that's why we typically discuss changes → implement changes → explain the changes afterward in an on-wiki announcement. Could also make an announcement as the change is happening so anyone who wants to can be involved by joining the Discord server.

Our interest in the inFAMOUS Wiki goes beyond affiliates or NWO or whatever. We only take on new wikis who either approach us for, or who we were interested in from the outset. The inFAMOUS Wiki is one of the latter, as I've always been interested in this place (incidentally, inFAMOUS is one of the few video game series I regularly play/enjoy; typically don't like video games in general otherwise). With the addition of RB to the team, and Jim Logan's joining of the Discord server, we figured it was a natural match. We still of course need the support from any prominent contributors here, including you and Tenbeat.

I definitely understand that you'd like to see an actual mockup first, which is why we'll keep pushing ahead with this until we're ready to show something properly. However, I think it would help the process go along much smoother if you or some other user you trusted as a solid proxy was actually part of the process from about where we are now. That way we can account for any reasonable objections early on.

I don't really consider myself a prominent contributor to this wiki really. I love inFamous (it's one of my favorite series) but I don't have much to offer here. I do stuff on the Sly wiki not because I like wiki work, but because I like Sly Cooper.

Thanks for trying to include me though.

Jace: Regarding the Discord server, sorry, I understand your desire to discuss via chat, but quite frankly I have had a very poor experience with some members of the NWO when it came to running Discord servers. I would not be comfortable managing a Discord channel or server with them because of the past experience. Hence, I would like to keep the discussion here. I hope you understand that point.

Secondly, I briefly joined your Discord server, as you were well aware, and quickly found that a few of the NWO members seemed very disrespectful of my character and my previous work on here and on other wikis. I find it extremely insulting that you offer me an invite to your so-called Order, only for me to find out that such rude and derogatory statements were said about my character and my work. At this point, why would I be motivated to work with you all if you treat us with such disrespect while trying to further your agenda? If you were in my position, I'm sure that you would also not appreciate such demeanor.

I understand that I have been inactive here. And I apologize for that. But the way this whole ordeal has played out has been extremely infuriating, to say the least, because, as it has been indicated by your messages in your Discord server, you don't actually want to help improve this wiki; you just want to further your so-called "takeover" and "puppeteer" of existing wikis. Ironically, if anything, this has motivated me to return to this wiki in full form.

In any case, I would like to clarify my stance on this issue. While I thank you for your offer, I'm not interested in it, nor do I see a need for it. It's clear that some of your organization's members do not care to be team players; consequently, this project would have difficulties between the existing staff and your organization that I fear, would not be able to be resolved. Because of that, I am not in favor of this proposal. You are free to take your offer elsewhere.

I feel like you're unfairly conflating managing a discord server with simply having somewhere to discuss sweeping changes with expediency and convenience. A separate inFAMOUS discord server could be set up and managed however you wanted, so long as there was actually a place to do things quickly (as we tend to do).

Wishing for all important community decisions to be public is one thing, but holding grudges against someone highly experienced and empirically effective over something that has little to do with the topic at hand is less understandable.

I am sorry that you feel insulted, but to see this as an "infuriating ordeal" is kinda silly, right? You're talking about a fansite for a video game, here. Our proclamations of imminent wiki dominion as a "new wiki order" should be obvious as completely facetious and self-aware. We just happen to have helped a lot of wikis in the past, so that's what it looks like, and that's what we joke that it is.

And yes, it is primarily your inactivity (since 2015, keep in mind) that made us feel like this wiki was open season. We've admittedly had a few wikis in the past that we began to actually improve only to be stopped mid-way through by territorial admins making a miraculous reappearance just because they wanted control they perceived us to be taking away from them. That's not the idea. All the wikis we've successfully helped in the past are being run, happily, by all the dedicated contributors who were actually active before we showed up. Our only stake in this is to be able to call it a job-well-done at the end and move on.

At the same time we'll also pass on a wiki if we sense there's too much rigidity from the community mainstays, so if you're not up to task we'll leave you to it I guess.

Hey Shrev,

Sorry you feel this way. Just to clarify a few things:

1. NWO's only "agenda" is improving wikis for games we really like, and think deserve better wikis. We all come from the Jak wiki, and we reached a point where there were few ways to improve a wiki about a 10 year old series with no new entries, so we decided to take what we'd learned to improve other wikis, including my own Final Fantasy Wiki, and affiliate series.
2. Regarding standard main page design, the reason these are standard across them all is twofold. The first is the simple "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" logic. The second is that this main page design has provably good results. Main page designs like ours (per Fandom Staff's numbers) receive much higher clicks and user interaction than ones without a similar Contents (or Navigation) section.
3. To this end, during one of Fandom's UX research, Marvel's Spider-Man Wiki, one of our wikis, received some of the most positive feedback and mentions.
4. The logic applied to templates and CSS is similar; our templates are portable. As a Vanguard, I can attest to this, as I've had these templates looked at by the portability 'experts'.
5. One of our wikis, Marvel's Spider-Man Wiki, was one of the few wikis evaluated by Fandom Staff with a published report released by Isaac. You'll notice when reading that the feedback is much pickier than for the other evaluated wikis (Marvel Database, Harry Potter, and Game of Thrones), because in terms of navigation, organization, and template design, we are very high end. We received very good feedback overall for these areas.
6. It is true that we are opinionated about a lot of content, and there will be disagreements, but we have years of experience that led us to the conclusions we drew. And nonetheless, we respect the choice of any community if they disagree with a change we propose. It will be a collaborative process.
7. It's true that we have been extremely blunt, and I apologize if our members ever came off as disrespectful-- but we're more blunt to each other than to anyone else, really. We will be more diplomatic and mindful if you reconsider.
8. The idea that we "take over" wikis is more of a meme than anything else. We don't take over wikis or even force our solutions if not wanted. For instance, on Bandipedia, there were several changes we didn't make because the community was against them (the most obvious being that we would rather rename to just "Crash Bandicoot Wiki"). If inFAMOUS ever opposed any of our proposals, we would listen to the community.

I'm sorry you don't want NWO to help your wiki. I hope you reconsider, as it could greatly benefit having a team of experienced admins and designers to help, but nonetheless, we respect your decision if you are against.

I'm not going to mince words. Your group has talent, quite a bit of it. However, I can't say the same about the elitist and condescending nature of some of your members. It has been apparent from my interactions that your group is not very receptive to feedback if it does not fit your prerogative, because you all clearly seem to have the notion that your way is the only way and all other ways are inherently wrong.

In any case, I believe our decision is clear. Thank you for your time. I'll be closing this thread now.